But the liberal understanding cannot explain how particular traits come to be identified with particular groups. Only because group traits have an empirical basis in shared experience can we invoke them without fear of serious contradiction. Think how people would react if someone said, ``Koreans are lazy, '' or ``Hispanics are constantly trying to find ways to make money. '' Despite the prevalence of anti-Semitism, Jews are rarely accused of stupidity. Blacks are never accused of being tight with a dollar, or of conspiring to take over the world. By reversing stereotypes we can see how their persistence relies, not simply on the assumptions of the viewer, but also on the characteristics of the group being described

are you sure this isn't a quote from 'myth of the racist' by gran d. ragon?

one of the funniest things i can recall from the old 'national lampoon' was an ec comic parody featuring george wallace back before bremer put him in a wheelchair.
it was called somethin like 'tales of the old spook' and was narrated by a zombie-lookin black man who was wearing a sorta uniform cap and leaning out a window in the first panel.

the story began with then-governor of alabama wallace, who'd been trying to figure out a way to remain in office for an additional term forbidden to him by law, deciding to have his wife, lurleen, run in his place. following her election, however, things go downhill for poor ol george who finds himself in a maid's uniform waiting on madame guvnor. outraged, he contacts a renegade scientist who formerly worked for the tobacco institute from whom he obtains carcasses of some of the zillions of rats who died from cancer as the result of experiments to prove cigarettes were safe. since he's also the statehouse cook, he begins to substitute rat for other ingredients in dishes such as 'spaghetti & ratballs', 'rat tartare' and my personal favorite, 'rat jello' (each cube hadda lil tail). his plan succeeds and lurleen dies of cancer...and george is once again in office. eventually he himself dies and finds himself waiting to be transported to eternity. a schoolbus pulls up and the door opens to reveal the driver--our narrator, the old spook--who orders a horrified george to get on and go to the back of the bus. next stop: hell. a hell fulla klan victims and bloody freedom marchers ready to torment him for infinity.

in real life, wallace eventually renounced his strident 'segrah-gay-shun fo'evah' past and spent his last years working on behalf of the black citizens of alabama.

the reason i subjected you to all that is to suggest a theory that occured to me while reading thru this thread. i'm specifically referring to those which the writers actually do sound somewhat paranoid (paranoia being a condition of unreasonable fear).

despite claims to the contrary, dabe is very right in her assertion that the racial divide here was created by white people and it was white people who perpetuated it for several hundred years to their great advantage.

those of you who are about to start responding with outraged statements that it isnt fair to blame them because they never owned slaves, made anyone use the 'colored' washrooms, etc. etc., will please contain themselves for a moment or two more.

your arguments fall flat for a couple reasons, chief among them being the facts that history doesn't exist in a vacuum and that one cannot simply wipe away the past and start over clean. you may or may not have known any black, brown, red, yellow, purple or green people growing up. you may have had your ass beaten from the first day you ventured outdoors til you graduated from high school by those same black, brown, etc. people. you may have even helped sign up voters in mississippi in 1964. none of those things mitigate the suffering inflicted by the majority on the various minorities for far too many years.

your black/brown/red/yellow/pink neighbors may never have been slaves or made to eat out behind a restaurant--if they're under the age of 40. they may or may not have had anyone insult them directly to their faces or kick their asses from the day they first stepped outside. but there's a very good likelihood--if they arent blind and can hear--they know far too well what far too many think of them in the collective.

i know you're outraged because they don't know you or your thoughts (in some cases, that works to your benefit). i know it pisses you off that despite 40 years of official equality, some of the formerly oppressed still seem to have a chip on their shoulder.

as if you wouldn't.

as far as that paranoia goes, here's my theory: perhaps you haven't always been as reasonable as you are today...and perhaps you've looked down on others because of their ethnicity...and perhaps instead of liberal guilt being the problem, it's collective guilt (whether you wanna accept that or not) or even personal guilt, that's coloring your perspective.

sure there are dangerous people all around us. but i didnt see any of those who identify themselves as white expressing concern about those dangerous people who are members of their own race. nor their neighbors who don't immediately respond to their greetings. and let's face it, they have absolutely no justification for being less than eager to make your acquaintance.

unless, of course, they ARE considering the dangerous people all around them...and you fit their preconceived notion of who they are.

consider this a postscript to my previous comment.

while i'll be the first to agree i don't know anything about any of you except for what you've posted, i've been a white american long enough to know how rare it is to find another white american who doesn't buy into any racial stereotypes or who'll object to another white american disparaging members of other races or who comes from a household in which both parents and all siblings truly consider members of other races to be their equals in all regards.

if you're one of them, i wonder why you havent posted a comment in this thread.

... or who comes from a household in which both parents and all siblings truly consider members of other races to be their equals in all regards. if you're one of them, i wonder why you havent posted a comment in this thread.

Kingbee, I have posted already. Both my parents were of the 50's bohemian, and later hippy ilk. When I was a kid in the 60's, my father (particularly) would take us to book drives for southern black schools. We'd go to equality marches together, as family outings. Our family dentist was a black man, which was very unusual back then, I think, and more unusual that he would have whites for clients.

If it wasn't tough enough being Jewish and growing up in a predominantly Catholic town in Connecticut, we stayed with my grandparents every summer in Rockaway Beach, NY, which was predominantly Irish Catholics, and where my grandparents owned summer bungalows. During the summers, my sister and I would usually hang around with a friend who happened to live in the projects, and who happened to be Puerto Rican. The Catholic whites on the block proceeded to shun us because we hung around with spiks, were Jewish, and therefore commie pinkos. They also protested vehemently when blacks from the inner city would take the subway out to Rockaway and go to their "white only" beach. Loverly, don't ya think?

My upbringing heightened my awareness of racism in this country. Because of the racial tensions all around, I have fought hard with myself to not be sucked into racist thinking. Another story - when I was a construction inspector in NYC, I was the only person on a job site one rainy day. Up drove a van and about 8-10 black men poured out and started walking towards my car. My first reaction was fear. But, in spite of it, I got out of my car and approached them. The spokesperson for the group asked if the contractor was onsite, and told me that they were members of the Black Coalition looking for work. They were essentially friendly, and we talked about the project, then they thanked me left. I felt a bit ashamed for feeling afraid. Had they been white, I know I would not have felt that way. It's so hard, sometimes, to not succumb to racial fear.

So, that's one tale of my childhood. Both my parents are deceased. Their last house was in the predominantly black and hispanic neighborhood in Lancaster, PA, and they were friends with the entire neighborhood. They both fought racism till the day they died. I'd like to think that it rubbed off on me.

It's really sad that you can't handle even a lighthearted jest without lapsing into hate and vulgarity. Really, really sad.

Coming from you, it's never lighthearted. You're a liar. As for vulgarity, there are different kinds of vulgarity, and you are definitely one of the most holistically vulgar people I have ever encountered. That's what's so sad. Not that I said the word "shit".

I mean, how would YOU feel, if you were the only black person for blocks around, and every time you left your house you saw numerous groups of drunken young white men with shaved heads and white laces in their Doc Martin Shitkicker Boots, wearing T-shirts with Confederate Flags and Swastikas on them, (hey, their just clothes, and by your own argument, they really say *nothing* about the person wearing them) while blasting David Allen Coe's "She Ran Off With a Nigger" or anything by Johnny Rebel or Screwdriver, (both white supremacist bands)from their pick-up truck stereos, giving you icy stares as you walk by?But I'm not to make any judgement at all about these people, because I don't know them personally, and hey, they might just be innocent schoolteachers playing dress-up after work?Gimme a break

I wouldn't be happy about it, but if the area had a spotless record of conduct, I wouldn't run from it. That was my question. You've yet to answer it.

Ever hear the saying "the clothes make the man"?.......

Don't judge a book by its cover?

I mean, I know I don't have to worry about Ozzy Osbourne in werewolf form attacking me while I sleep or Marilyn Manson sacrificing me to Satan. But, I also know that if I go into the wrong area, I can be attacked and killed for my skin color (or lack thereof, rather), or if I happened to be wearing the wrong color of clothing or just incidentally shot down in a drug deal gone bad, drive-by or other shooting incident. Which is more threatening?

You don't worry about Marylin Manson or Ozzy Osbourne getting you, so I'm going to assume that you don't worry about individual rappers getting you either. However, these rap act threaten you because they have fans and/or followers that may get you. My question is, why don't Satanists who may be fans of Marilyn Manson threaten you in the same way? We can all be shot for no reason. There is no rap act that is at fault for this. It's just as asinine to blame inner city violence on rap as it was to blame Columbine on Manson.

Foreverserenity makes a good point when she says that the gangsta rappers make a bad example for the lower-income kids. They see them and their lifestyle as a gateway to fame and fortune; the kids in the ghetto see this and want the lifestyle but probably have no legitimate means to get it, so they often turn to crime and violence. Another thing that bothers me about them is their extreme focus on materialism, wealth and sex. Then, they send them the message to "keep it real"! Who's keeping it real? The pimped-out rappers in fur coats, weighed down with twenty pounds of gold chains and teeth, surrounded by sexy women, expensive cars and waving stacks of hundred dollar bills in their videos, or the single mom/low-income family struggling to feed her/their kids and pay the bills, all the while working in everyday reality to keep their kids out of that lifestyle? It's not "real", it's terribly unreal. Rappers are the least socially responsible "celebrities", when they should be the first, considering their origins.

It's funny how no one gets on the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith for all the drugs and women and everything, though, isn't it?

I got a problem with this "I can't tell how you feel since I'm not black".. Are we or are we not the same? Lil_whip mentioned a perfectly good mirrow image example of how would a black person feel in that situation and expressed HOW she feels in this situation. Last I checked emotions are one of those things we ALL have in common..kinda like blood, brains, and hearts?.. How could I not understand the problem?

Just like you couldn't understand what its like to be in war if you've never been. Just like you don't know the grief of losing a loved one if you never have. I've no doubt that you can understand the problem; I've also no doubt that you don't even begin to get as angry as I do about it.

Blacks do segregate themselves, too, and willingly. Ever been to a high school lunchroom, for example?

The same argument could be made to say that whites segregate themselves willingly.

Oh, and BTW, if LW and Dabe could see fit to keep their personal crap out of here, that would be cool.

Lovely, dabe, just lovely. It's really sad that you can't handle even a lighthearted jest without lapsing into hate and vulgarity. Really, really sad. And no, you don't have to call in Karma, I just emailed your comment to her. (I wouldn't want her to miss out on anything important, you know.)

As did I LW. Have a great day.

Just a thought on this topic Philomedy.

Where does typical end and "stereotypical" begin?

Where does typical end and "stereotypical" begin?

Typical: All hispanic people have roots in hispanic nations.

Stereotypical: Hispanic people in the United States have no interest in learning English.

Do you yourself live in a "black" part of town? If not, why not?

Because I'm fortunate enough to be able to live in a better neighborhood. Not a neighborhood thats primarily anything, just a neighborhood without a bad reputation.

I thought I had answered your question, Phil.

The question: Same people in a non-dangerous neighborhood. Do you still go out of your way to avoid them?

One very basic flaw to your argument: schizophrenia is a psychotic condition. Look it up. Paranoid schizophrenia is one form of that condition. Paranoia is quite a different matter entirely. Too many people mix and match the two interchangeably, which you have done here, and they are not the same at all. It is possible to be paranoid but not schizophrenic. A schizophrenic may be unable to function in society at all in some cases; a paranoiac usually can, but with difficulties because of the paranoia.

That having been said, among Caucasians are minority populations to which the descriptions you give also apply. Race can be a very complicated subject; racism is even more complicated, and it's best to avoid it if possible. Happily, I do.

It's funny how no one gets on the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith for all the drugs and women and everything, though, isn't it?

---Phil

But the Stones and Aerosmith aren't out there perpetuating their lifestyle by featuring it in songs. They don't sing about selling drugs, slapping bitches and killing police, either. I mean, yes...they do drugs and have the rock star lifestyle, and they might write about it sometimes, but their lyrics aren't anywhere near as explicitly violent or sexual as rap.
"Let's spend the night together" or "Livin' it up while I'm goin' down" aren't exactly "I'm gonna shove your face in the pillow so you can scream as loud as you want". That's just one example, I know, but the lyrics of the better, more talented and often older rockers like The Beatles, The Stones, Aerosmith, the Eagles and Ozzy are somewhat more imaginative (often using analogy or metaphor) than those of more modern musicians, and that definately includes rappers as well as the modern rockers. Especially rappers.
They don't bother using any tact; they just say what they mean. That's detrimental to the society they claim to represent, especially when you have 6-year-olds calling themselves pimps (or rather "pee-yomps") and referring to the females around them as bitches and Hoes.

You don't worry about Marylin Manson or Ozzy Osbourne getting you, so I'm going to assume that you don't worry about individual rappers getting you either. However, these rap act threaten you because they have fans and/or followers that may get you. My question is, why don't Satanists who may be fans of Marilyn Manson threaten you in the same way? We can all be shot for no reason. There is no rap act that is at fault for this. It's just as asinine to blame inner city violence on rap as it was to blame Columbine on Manson.

---Phil

Well, first of all, I know that Ozzy isn't a werewolf and Satanists aren't driving or walking by my house every hour of every day. I know they exist, and I know that they could, possibly be a danger, but it's very highly unlikely. What's much, much more likely is being robbed by some black dude as I pay for my gas at the BP up the street or assaulted by a 'banger.
Yes, I know that white people commit crimes, too; but strangely enough, when I turn on the news and see footage of some dude or chick in shackles, cuffs and wearing an orange jumpsuit, he/she most often seems to be black. If my playing the odds in assuming that a veeeery biiiiig chunk of the drug-related and violent crime in this country is committed by blacks is racist, then call me a racist. I consider it being realistic. For this psychological reason, white and hispanics simply aren't as threatening as blacks.
I'm not one of those like dabe who assumes that all black people in prison are there unjustly.
Rap acts do perpetuate violence....putting messages music is a powerful force, especially for the weak-willed-and-minded.
Lyrics like those of Marylin Manson had an effect on the weak, insecure egos of people like the Columbine killers. The same can be said for the young people of inner-city neighborhoods who feel cheated by the "system" and "kept down", because they haven't gotten the brass ring, for whatever reason. It doesn't help that they have prominent people like Jesse Jackson (which, by the way, thanks alot for completely ignoring that whole section of my reply...it contained much of the meat of what I had to say and some much better topics for debate than this) telling them this, too. Protest music in the 60s brought people out into the streets and prompted them to acts of demonstration and protest. Don't tell me that the violent messages of rap music and "alternative" rock don't have the same effect in their own ways. You may find that statement asinine, and to people like you and me, with healthy self-images, it may be, but not for some.
Have things for young blacks really improved that much since hardcore rap with its messages of violence and hedonism, started in the 80s? No, they haven't. They've gotten worse. We didn't have things like school shootings, either, now that I mention it, before we had assholes like Marilyn Manson with his freaky messages and lyrics. Hmmmm....might have to study that a bit.

The same argument could be made to say that whites segregate themselves willingly.

---Phil

I had several black friends in school but they never saw fit to come sit at the "white tables" in the cafeteria....they always sat at their own, where whites were not completely welcome, I might add.

Typical: All hispanic people have roots in hispanic nations. Stereotypical: Hispanic people in the United States have no interest in learning English.

Why should they learn it? We're making it so that they don't have to. Every sign or label I see nowadays is at least bi-or-tri-lingual.
I worked at a Dollar Tree and waited on Mexicans (there is a large population here) everyday. If there was a group, there would be one who spoke English and the others just stood there while he talked to me an translated. As I said in my ~~TOTALLY IGNORED~~ section, stereotypes exist for a reason.

Emulation can be inferred as guilt by association, dress like a thug, and you get lumped into the crowd.

Is it fair? No.

Is it common ? Yes.

Is it safe to bet that the emulator is what he appears to be? Depends upon the situation;

"Bad part of Town" loitering with other,like dressed individuals ? High degree of probability that more than one is not a "poser".

High School Break area ? If school has a uniform policy, yes emulator is a thug, no dress policy, even odds at best..

"Hangin' out " around a store front during daytime ? Yep.

High School Atheletic event ? More than likely as well, if not directly envolved in the event.

What gives? There is no cultural basis for this type of dress beyond well documented cases of "Prison Chic" and Gang
regalia. Is it too much to ask that law abiding, tax paying,
citizens not emulate or glorify the obvious negative stereotypes of their culture ?

Are minorities so adverse to adopting general clothing styles ( read conservative, not "White" ) that they PREFER to look like hoods?

Is the "crab bucket" mentality that pervasive?

You know, I really admire older blacks. They can remember what things were like back when blacks really WERE kept down, and can appreciate and understand the changes that have been made in their lifetimes. Younger blacks don't have that.
They've lived their whole lives with state-sponsored programs that give them virtually anything they want virtually on demand, and as a result, have gotten an insidious sense of entitlement from that ideal. One that their forebears don't have and don't want.
I'm supposed to respect them just because...because they suffered as slaves to the white man for centuries, that the white man made them use separate restrooms, telephones, water fountains and lunch counters. That the white man passed laws to keep them "in their place".
The only problem with that is that I, personally, never did any of those things.
My respect needs to be earned rather than freely given.
One of the problems I'm seeing here is that you, Phil, don't want to hear what many of us on the other side have to say. Our opinions, experiences and stories are contrary to what you want to hear, so you tend to totally ignore or gloss over many of the personal experiences and opinions of those with whom you're disagreeing.
You (and dabe, too, really) want to argue from what you see or want to believe, rather than listening to our examples, so you pick nits and take on the weaker topics and arguments.
I guess maybe we all do this to a certain extent, but you as a black person, for example, perhaps want to feel vindicated of all the problems in race relations that blacks do, in fact, cause for themselves.
If that's the prevalent perspective among blacks today, and I sincerely hope it isn't, then things are never going to get better.