philo, If I have ever said/printed something anything that cause you even a moments pain or discomfort I deeply apoligize. I mean no harm to anyone {well except crazy liberals} and that just generalzations.

It's not just you, but thanks. I just needed to put the other side of the coin out there.

It's so easy for what you say here to be taken as an affront or for you to be told you're taking things too personnally, when you're not. The fact is if someone has never been at the receiving end of what you're talking about, they'll never understand the point you're trying to make.

That's very true. I don't like saying that I have to take it personally because that's the way the world forces me to take it, because I honestly feel like a hypocrite. I don't want to typecast the world in that way. I feel as though I'm generalizing, which is precisely what I don't want other people to do.

Perhaps "low life street-thug" would be more accurate than criminal, in this case.

Even then, I don't think I should be penalized for wearing something that a so-called "thug" might also happen to wear. I mean, to be perfectly honest, Sean John makes some nice clothes. I like them. It's not my fault that "thugs" do too.

In my opinion, however,one of the problems comes from the way minorities portray themselves to the media and to society at large. How many rappers (black or white, for that matter), for example, do you see smiling warmly out from the display windows of music stores? You don't. They all sneer and snarl threateningly, often making gang signs and perhaps other more anti-social gestures. Their personas as gangstas and Hos come through in their lyrics, which are often unnecessarily and ridiculously violent and sexually explict. This is supposed to reflect minority culture; in fact, I believe, it simply perpetuates the myth of it instead to society at large, while the more responsible members of those minorities (you, for example) seek to rise above it. Minorities do it to themselves

This is a good example Rigtwinger. It is a good example of a bad example. The unfortunate thing is rappers and entertainers such as these are seen as representation of what being black is. It is this "picture" that other people around the world see and think of anyone of this minority. It is the stereotype that is used to identify with someone who is American and Black.

And even worst if they cannot identify anything else with Blacks. It is worst when young Black children and youths identify with these rappers who behave this way to make a dollar! It's worst for those children who do not have anyone to guide them and say, this is not all that we are. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? It's like banging your head against a wall trying to make others see that this is not typical and should not be accepted as such.

It's even worst when you try to discuss openly something like this and are presumed to have a chip on your shoulder or lumped with those who claim to be victims. It's a matter of damn if you do and damn if you don't. It's what Phil is trying to say. And Phil if this is not it, then I guess I need to be enlightened!

Even then, I don't think I should be penalized for wearing something that a so-called "thug" might also happen to wear. I mean, to be perfectly honest, Sean John makes some nice clothes. I like them. It's not my fault that "thugs" do too.

Honestly, that's too just too bad then. That's the risk you take when you wish to exercise your freedom of expression in a way similar to the way thugs practice it. Would you walk through K-Town on 26th St. wearing black and gold and sporting a gold chain with a five point crown on it? I suppose you have the right to do so, but would that be prudent? In essence, what you're asking for is to be able to express yourself however you want, but to have nobody be able to form an opinion about your expression.

Would you walk through K-Town on 26th St. wearing black and gold and sporting a gold chain with a five point crown on it?

If you see me walking through there wearing that, feel free to think what you want.

Notice I didnt say I was looking at pictures of gangsters and dressing myself like them. I said I like some shirts that a brand makes. Certain gangsters wear the same shirts. I should not be typecast because of it, especially walking through the suburbs.

And I don't see people rushing to me and offering free drinks when I dress like certain wealthy CEO's, either.

If you see me walking through there wearing that, feel free to think what you want.

Well, I wouldn't be there. But the point is some people there very likely will think something of you, and about who you associate with, a judgment about who or what you are based on how you express yourself. It wouldn't be far-fetched to believe you'd see some heated projectile flying in your direction at a high rate of speed from someone clad in black and beige. That however would be an extreme example. Most likely this someone, or group of someones, would accost you, harass you, and probably beat you up. I may be getting old now, but the gangs you have now in Chicago, or Oak Park, or wherever you live now, are the same gangs we had growing up fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years ago. I still remember colors and corners to avoid, although I know the latter has changed.

And I don't see people rushing to me and offering free drinks when I dress like certain wealthy CEO's, either.

Are people taking money from you and not giving your drinks when you "dress like a thug?"

But the point is some people there very likely will think something of you, and about who you associate with, a judgment about who or what you are based on how you express yourself.

I'm not clad in colors, I'm clad in a brand. That shouldn't carry connotations.

I'm not clad in colors, I'm clad in a brand. That shouldn't carry connotations.

So brand name is an appropriate form of expression, and shouldn't draw any judgment, but the same can't be said of the colors one chooses to wear.

Look, all I was saying is that there is no way to tell what a criminal looks like. Clothing that is associated with thugs can be coordinated to look nice too. There is no way to tell what a thug looks like.

You may call that racist. I call it smart.

I haven't called anyone anything. You shouldn't avoid places simply because of the people, though. I don't know how dangerous the places where these groups of young men hang out is; I don't know its reputation. I'm assuming its bad.

But say it was good, and they were still dressed that way: Would you still avoid them?

It's the whole look. The gold teeth, the baggy pants capable of concealing major weaponry, the expensive shoes that (for some) are worth killing to have. And I don't know how I would react to seeing someone dressed like this in the suburbs, because I can't really recall ever seeing someone dressed like this in the suburbs

a trip to the suburbs might prove to be quite a trip indeed. altho i don't venture there often because of all the things you hear about the suburbanite community, i do occasionally venture out into the world. except for gold teeth (which must be an eastcoast reverse status thing cuz next to a pair of overalls and muddy brogans, you can't hardly find an accessory that says 'i'm country' quite as effectively) it appears to me that those suburb youths are buying and wearing pretty much the same thuggin life stuff.

the main difference i've noticed is chad and dylan are much more likely to have their hair shorn down to a stubble to make themselves look scaaary.

it works, too.

that's why i always order my mayo sammiches to go.

but the gangs you have now in Chicago, or Oak Park, or wherever you live now, are the same gangs we had growing up fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years ago.

b calm
b careful
b cautious
b ware

blackstone rangers all up in heah.

altho schizophrenia doesn't really entail dual personae, one element here is the contradiction between what a lotta people say they believe and what they clearly must believe.

those who attribute behavior to the _________ community (however you wanna fill in that blank) obviously feel there is such a monolithic thing somewhere. these are almost always the same people who besides denying the existence of any similar community consisting of others with the same color skin, langage, etc. as themselves, will spend hours explaining how their own community (which doesn't exist, remember) is more civil and better behaved.

ya can't have it both ways, folks. either you've gotta acknowledge and take responsibility for all the outrages perpetrated by your community AND immediately start falling in line when someone starts lecturing you about spoiling your kids or cheating on your taxes OR quit calling for others to take responsibility for everything that happens in their respective mythical community in addition to respectfully heeding advice you yourself would laff off should it be proffered by some boozed up ol usedtobe sitcom star & pudding pusher of your own race.

I was waiting for selection in a jury pool a number of years ago, in Newark, NJ, of all places. It's a predominantly black city, with predominantly white suburbs. Newark is a city that has never recovered from the 60's riots, and its administration has been stealing that city blind for years. But, I digress......

Anyway, I was waiting with a bunch of people, all of us bored to tears. I struck up a conversation with this very tall black guy, who happened to have a very prominant gold star tooth right in front. It was the tooth that drew me to him. I told him that as much as I never could understand the reasoning behind a gold tooth, it looked good on him. It was, in a way, kind of fascinating.

I think he was kind of surprised that this rather small, middle aged white woman would so boldly comment on the subject. He told me he spent thousands of dollars on it. But, in fact, he wanted to get it removed as soon as he got enough money to do so. He felt that it stereotyped him as something he didn't ever want to be.

We spent the next few hours just talking. What a nice guy. If I was only younger..................

Phil, I completely agree with you. We whities remain much more scared of blacks, than vice versa. I know I say that kind of cavalierly, in that I am not black, and therefore cannot know how blacks feel. But, there is this fear thing. And, fear becomes hate. And hate becomes blinded by fear. People should just reach out. Seize the moment. Be bold. You might just be surprised.

I live on Long Island, NY now. It is one of the most racially segregated places I have ever lived. And one thing we have to remember about segregation..... it has never been created by blacks. Always whites. Blacks merely respond to it, and the culture that segregation develops becomes yet another reason for fear. And, these segregated neigborhoods are usually fraught with poverty and crime, which is yet another result of segregation. And, because of the poverty, that's where hispanics and other non-white immigrants tend to congregate. Sometimes, you get a poor white person who moves in, just because the rent is cheap. Certainly not out of love of fellow human beings. Cheap rent. Poverty. Unemployment. Crime. Fear. Hate. Cheap rent. Poverty...............

I really believe that racism is the white man's construct. We broke it (humanity). Somehow, we have to fix it. But, it will require cooperation from all races and creeds. Fear and loathing just won't cut it. Fear and loathing merely perpetuates the problem.

Look, all I was saying is that there is no way to tell what a criminal looks like. Clothing that is associated with thugs can be coordinated to look nice too. There is no way to tell what a thug looks like.

Running ambulance in Atlanta, we had to learn quick "what a thug looks like". Those clothes may not mean much more than fashion to you, but not knowing what they mean to a banger could cost us our lives.

We literally looked to gang leaders for their nod before cutting clothes that were part of the gangs colors. We had to know which bandanas, shirts, pants (whatever) mattered and which ones didn't.

When I tell people about that it bothers them to hear. They think it means we are acknowledging and respecting the leadership positions within the gangs. I tell them it's not about respect, it's about getting the job done and staying alive doing it.

You and I may wear what we like, and you may complain about getting typecast because of what you wear. However to others, their clothes and what they say mean more to them than their lives.