Phil,

You get an insightful for that last statement. While we may have federal laws that "bend over backwards" (and they do; affirmative action goals are ALMOST NEVER applied in places where whites are a minority; an evaluation of NCAA recruiting statistics will show as much), the laws have only shown the truism of the old adage "you can't legislate morality". No matter how many laws we put into place, we can't stop certain individuals from their biased tendencies.

Maybe we need to reevaluate our approach?

Phil,You get an insightful for that last statement. While we may have federal laws that "bend over backwards" (and they do; affirmative action goals are ALMOST NEVER applied in places where whites are a minority; an evaluation of NCAA recruiting statistics will show as much), the laws have only shown the truism of the old adage "you can't legislate morality". No matter how many laws we put into place, we can't stop certain individuals from their biased tendencies. Maybe we need to reevaluate our approach?

Precisely. As I mentioned earlier, I hate affirmative action with a passion I usually save for Hitler.

Anyways, we do need to reevaluate our approach, as is evidenced by the fact that it's been 4-5 days and no one seems to get that point yet.

even by the least stringent standard, there's no basis for suggesting anything more than a possibility. i particularly love this: The skulls from Baja California, which may date back only a few hundred years, have slender-looking faces that are different from the broad-cheeked craniums of modern Amerindians, the descendants of the Mongoloid people

I prefer the rest of the National Geographic article that talks about all the other evidence they have to support the conclusion of the Baja skull bearing an affinity to very old skeletons found in various parts of North and South America, which predate anything that can be attributed to the American Indians. Not to mention the DNA analysis of the Pericue skull. Look at the evidence in its entire context.

Everyone. Everyone who has to live in fear, which everyone now does. Whether you're afraid that someone's gonna jump you or that you will be denied opportunities or that you will be stopped by the police and questioned for walking down your block, everyone is afraid and no one is better off for it. I'm not going to repeat the fact that I agreed with the statement that all stereotypes have their basis in some truth, because if you didn't see it the first eight times, you won't see it now. I want to mention my argument that responsibility to fix things does not fall on any one race, but I doubt you'll see that either.

The statement I responded to was My point is that stereotypes are harmful, and that they need to stop. Saying they are "harmful to everyone" is a lacking answer, because they're not always harmful, at least not to all parties involved. Living in denial is not a positive alternative to living in fear.

And as the person who you're defending points out, two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to write an article about the atrocities the Indians have committed, go ahead. I'll be there. I'll comment. I'll agree with you that they did some horrible things. We're not talking about that here.

That's unnecessary. The point is that the debate should stopped being framed in "We were here first" terms. It's an unfulfilling way to make a case. And that's precisely the argument you fell back on. Well it doesn't appear the Indians were here first, and are thus as guilty as virtually as every other group on the planet. My final words in that response were these:

Well, what does that mean? That Indians are to be oppressed and treated badly? Absolutely not. They should be given the same rights every other human being deserves. But they, and their advocates, should come of their high horses and accept themselves for who they are: the same as everyone else--no more guilty or innocent than the rest of us. No more deserving of a racial birthright of a continent. Now we can be content that the Indians are like the Spanish, the French, the English, the Germans, the Huns (and I don't mean the Germans again), the Mongols, the Magyars, the Arabs, the Turks, the Jews, the Moors, the Bantu, and the Aryans.

I stand by those words.

Amazing! You have marginal comprehension skills.

awww i didnt realize my minimal skills were so evident. don't worry tho, i'll try twice as hard to keep up someone so obviously outta my league.

Then when you can't come up with a cogent rebuttal, you just throw out accusations of racism

actually i'm not sure i need to say anything more than i already did. the title states his thesis (as is usually the case) and he invalidates both by claiming that racist cab drivers--one of whom he quotes--aren't at all a myth but a reality. oh...but wait. the driver's experience justifies his hatred. so he gets a pass...as does everyone else it turns out. rational discrimination is politically correct codespeak for the same ol bullshit. the only difference between his equivocation and the old paradigm (since you enjoy that flavor-of-the-month kinda jargon) a veneer of false civility. i say it's spinach and i say the hell with it.

Then no one who buys your religious dogma is required to think, and guilty whites, skittish of their own racism shadow, will follow suit.

gotta hand it to you. i've been accused of a lotta stuff, but this is a first. religious dogma? i KNEW i shoulda gone into televangelism.

And Whitey can still be the menacing devil you wish to portray him as

i don't wish to portray 'whitey' as anything other than what i perceive him to be (i can't believe i'm discussing whitey as if there was such a person). white america's oppression of other races has a long and very well documented history. while it may have been codified and official policy only in certain locations, it was nevertheless the way things were nationwide (and to some extent, still are, altho much less openly). it worked to the benefit of those who promoted it in a number of ways, none of them healthy nor beneficial for the country except in the relative short run. ultimately it worked to the detriment of all but those whose primary interest was employing it as a means of dividing to conquer.

If rational discrimination is tantamount to racism, then maybe racism really isn't all that abominable.

of course it's not the same as full-on, don't let the sun set on your ass here racism. but it's a backward step on a slippery slope.

let's imagine for a moment that white women en masse were to buy into the 'black men are much more generously endowed than whites' stereotype to the point they no longer found white partners desirable?

they can rationalize that discrimination no?

If you think that white Americans have bent over backwards, you have a sadly misguided view of how much is left to be done

No, your the one who is sadly mistaken if you don't see how much has "been" done.

......... now feel the need to have seperate "black" versions of everything under the sun as well?

It's not about needing to have separate everythings. It's about seeking out ways to get ahead, companionship with others who have been comperably shunned by the "mainstream". It's about mentoring and moving forward and gaining equality. It's not about separation of races. It stuns me that people actually still believe this racist fallacy.

Any organization or event whose membership or participation requires a certain skin color to join is blatantly racist by default.

No disagreement there. But, having black proms or other black clubs is a reaction to being shut out of white only clubs, and golf courses, and bars, and corporate meeting, etc. for years and decades and generations. I do not fault any group of black politicians, black labor organizations, black or brown or yellow or red anything. I do however, find white only clubs dispicable. In fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you wanted to attend a meeting of one of the black organizations, you'd be welcome. I know. I have. But, reverse that to a white only meeting, and it's racism plain and simple. These are not really very hard concepts.

If you want to talk about America's CURRENT racism, I'd venture it is a BLACK man's construct.

I can't believe you left the klan. You're so like them.

If you think that white Americans have bent over backwards, you have a sadly misguided view of how much is left to be done.

Yeah, I was wondering what planet whips has been living on. It sure ain't earth.

I see that even after 135 posts, we haven't moved past the "blame whitey" phase, so with that, I'll bid you all adieu.

Ciao!!

No, your the one who is sadly mistaken if you don't see how much has "been" done.

What a joke! Spoken by the guy who posts a symbol of racism, the confederate flag as his avatar.

What a joke! Spoken by the guy who posts a symbol of racism, the confederate flag as his avatar.

Do NOT go there Dabe, YOU will NOT like the outcome! I will personally guarantee that!

What a joke! Spoken by the guy who posts a symbol of racism, the confederate flag as his avatar. Do NOT go there Dabe, YOU will NOT like the outcome! I will personally guarantee that!

Huh??? You're threatening me?

Huh??? You're threatening me?

Nope, just informing you on what might happen if you persue the line you were taking. As a matter of fact I would rather you didn't mention me at all, in any of you posts.

Just a thought I had on this topic.. (as long as the thread is still active).

I grew up in Whitebread, USA. There was 1 Black kid in my High School, a lot of Navajo and Pima, and a fair amount of Mexicans; but if any of these minority groups accounted for even a 1% share of the school's 1500 or so kids, I would be highly surprised.

I knew of racism, because I do remember a park in the closest bigger city that only Black kids played in, it was basically only because of the neighborhood it was in, and I didn't really know it was "racist" that only Black kids could play their, but that is the earliest memory I have that concerns "segregation".

Then, when I was 16, we moved to Florida. The kids in the neighborhood we moved into were "bussed" to a High School 12 miles away. This school was mostly made of up Greek kids (Since the city of Tarpon Springs was settled by Greek immigrants). There were also many more Black people than White. In fact, we were bussed in to satisfy racial diversity requirements.

There I learned of the hate behind racism. I learned it from the race riots we had at that school. I learned if from seeing National Guard troops roaming our walkways for a week after one especially bad riot. I learned it from White people who hated minorities; Black people who hated White people, and other minorities; Americans of Greek descent, who hated everyone that wasn't Greek.

I never learned to understand why a person would hate another one, especially over something as arbitrary as race. I never learned to understand the "us vs. them" mentality that would cause a person to get mad over being called a name. I never learned to understand why I shouldn't a someone's friend, just because of where their ancestors came from...

So, no, I don't understand why it's ok for Black people to use the word "nigger" but nobody else is. I don't understand why wanting to rise above a bad living situation is "selling out". I don't understand why the color of a bandana, or the way you wear your hat is more important than your life.

From watching the damage and destruction brought on by racism, I have learned what it is; but I refuse to ever think of it as a good thing, no matter who the racist is, or why they want me to see things their way.

There I learned of the hate behind racism

I never learned to understand why a person would hate another one, especially over something as arbitrary as race

since you follow up on the 2nd statement quoted above by whining about what you obviously consider to be an unjust social convention regarding the use of a truly hateful slur (even as you use it in the process of your complaint), i'm not at all sure the 1st quoted statement is accurate nor honest.

do you normally accord to your kids the 'right' to indulge in something hateful and horrible when they assure you 'everyone else is doing it'?

explain to me in small words please (i apparently have a problem comprehending the type of sophisticated wordplay that resolves this issue to others' satisfaction) how and why you feel so sorely constrained or deprived? or more importantly, what benefit you'd accrue if, in a perfect world, you could use it as freely as you wished?

Nope, just informing you on what might happen if you persue the line you were taking.

Yup, that qualifies as a threat, which is against ther terms of this site. So, do tell, what magic powers do you posess that would make something "happen"?

I'm just an inquiring mind............